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Joe:

I don't think we have big boxing differences, but you tend to over-interpret what I say. I didn't say Ali had the best jaw ever; I said he could take a punch better than almost any heavyweight. Combined with his ring skills that made him a great fighter.

I accept your Tyson point because Ali had trouble with swarming close-in fighters like Frazier, and Tyson was Frazier times 10 for a few years. I will also accept your Russian asterisk, although "monsters" like The Klitchkos aren't necessarily great fighters, witness Primo Carnera.

When you drag in other weight classes, you're changing the subject. The heavyweights get the attention they do because they're the big guys, who would automatically win against more talented little guys. Life is not fair. There were TWO Sugar Rays, both more talented than most anybody in the whole history of boxing. If you want to play what if games, Leonard vs Robinson would top my list. And of course many of the most entertaining fights are not the heavyweights. They're slower, more ponderous, and more susceptible to promoter bullshit.

Still, I'll stick with Ali as the greatest. I wish the last few years of his career didn't exist. As I said, I didn't relish the punishment he took. I was afraid it would do to him what it has. But nobody has generated the fierce emotions, pro and con, the drama, and the joy/anger so vast as to transcend the sport for a long long time as Ali, although Joe Louis is also a "contendah" for that honor. I vote Ali. One man, one vote.

Thanks, RL, about what I expected.

You are right about the relative merits of bravery in war-time versus that which is required just to make it through life. Some men have the guts to charge a gun-nest but not to raise their children.

Bert Sugar has a terminal case of 'old timer's syndrome' (where yours is still treatable). Bert Sugar has fighters on his top 100 who have no (or very little) extant footage of them fighting. It's hard to take some of that seriously.

Look, saying Ali could beat Louis would be like saying McGuire can out-slug Babe Ruth, or that Arnold Schwarzenegger had a wider chest than Charles Atlas. Even excluding steroids, nutritional science/ general physical fitness knowledge grows every few years or so. When Ali was on Arsenio with Ray Leonard and Tyson, he admitted that he would have gotten starched by Tyson. Iron Mike had no ability to sustain a career, but Cus D'Amato (who trained Torres and Patterson to titles before Tyson) was right. No one, not Dempsey, not Tunney, not Ali, beats the Tyson who fought Berbick/Spinks.

And I've said this over the phone to you: If you want to asterisk Ali for those years he was laid off, I get to asterisk him for the Iron Curtain creating a buffer between Ali and the Klitschko-esque monsters who would have had a chance to try their amateur pedigree against Ali if politics hadn't fucked them as badly as it fucked him.

An iron beard, is great, but as Mayweather said "There is no glory in taking unneeded punishment." Big fish in a small pond Arthur Abraham's jaw was cracked (brutally) in his fight against Edison "El Pantera" Miranda. He literally filled a bucket with blood (whole fight on youtube). Ali was the first heavyweight to incorporate lower weight class dynamics with the big boys; but he does not have the best jaw in history, IMO.

I have the whole Cayton-Jacobs catalogue of fights on DVD and have seen every Ali fight. Hate to break this to you also, but Gatti-Ward I and any combination of the Haggler- Hearns-Leonard trifecta beats Ali-Anybody (IMO) for repeat watchability.

The best rivalry in history, however, is Saddler-Pep. For my money there were no two men in fistic history who had better chemistry than those two.

Helk:

You're not Oscar Wilde. Neither was he. Read The Ballad of Reading Gaol. That's one you might learn from.

A Much Better Commencement Address

The evolution of man is slow. The injustice of men is great. It was necessary that pain should be put forward as a mode of self-realisation. Even now, in some places in the world, the message of Christ is necessary. No one who lived in modern Russia could possibly realise his perfection except by pain. A few Russian artists have realised themselves in Art; in a fiction that is mediaeval in character, because its dominant note is the realisation of men through suffering. But for those who are not artists, and to whom there is no mode of life but the actual life of fact, pain is the only door to perfection. A Russian who lives happily under the present system of government in Russia must either believe that man has no soul, or that, if he has, it is not worth developing. A Nihilist who rejects all authority, because he knows authority to be evil, and welcomes all pain, because through that he realises his personality, is a real Christian. To him the Christian ideal is a true thing.

And yet, Christ did not revolt against authority. He accepted the imperial authority of the Roman Empire and paid tribute. He endured the ecclesiastical authority of the Jewish Church, and would not repel its violence by any violence of his own. He had, as I said before, no scheme for the reconstruction of society. But the modern world has schemes. It proposes to do away with poverty and the suffering that it entails. It desires to get rid of pain, and the suffering that pain entails. It trusts to Socialism and to Science as its methods. What it aims at is an Individualism expressing itself through joy. This Individualism will be larger, fuller, lovelier than any Individualism has ever been. Pain is not the ultimate mode of perfection. It is merely provisional and a protest. It has reference to wrong, unhealthy, unjust surroundings. When the wrong, and the disease, and the injustice are removed, it will have no further place. It will have done its work. It was a great work, but it is almost over. Its sphere lessens every day.

Nor will man miss it. For what man has sought for is, indeed, neither pain nor pleasure, but simply Life. Man has sought to live intensely, fully, perfectly. When he can do so without exercising restraint on others, or suffering it ever, and his activities are all pleasurable to him, he will be saner, healthier, more civilised, more himself. Pleasure is Nature’s test, her sign of approval. When man is happy, he is in harmony with himself and his environment. The new Individualism, for whose service Socialism, whether it wills it or not, is working, will be perfect harmony. It will be what the Greeks sought for, but could not, except in Thought, realise completely, because they had slaves, and fed them; it will be what the Renaissance sought for, but could not realise completely except in Art, because they had slaves, and starved them. It will be complete, and through it each man will attain to his perfection. The new Individualism is the new Hellenism. 1891

Bill:

You're my new favorite person. I get gas, say thank you, and the attendant nods without smiling. He accepts my customer obeisance.

You get it. Most don't. They hate polite Mr. Romney almost more than they hate class and race warrior Obama. They're exactly the same, don't you know?

It's no longer just the kids. It's adults now too. The tantrum is the thing. I (snuffle) don't LIKE him. (snuffle) :Moooooommmmmmeeeee! Excuse me. I didn't mean that. I mean I'm a Chicago style economist who knows everything because (snuffle), I have seen the end of the world and it is us."

Thanks for being a ray of light in the darkness.

RL: Bravo on the addendum. I'd like to see more. It's not dark, it's honest. I teach college freshmen and I have said many of these same things to them. If someone doesn't speak the truth to them, they are truly fucked.

Unfortunately, I'm one of the few that can get away with saying these things to these kids.

I've got significant time in grade, I'm old, and the administration is afraid of me.

These truths you speak are more than just important. We cannot survive as a society if these basic "rules" are ignored. We all have an obligation to teach them to young people wherever we encounter them.

Small anecdote and I'll quit: It drives me crazy when I'm at a store and say thank you to the young clerk and they respond with "no problem". I reply, "I know it's not a problem, you're getting paid to do it. The proper response is 'you're welcome'. You should learn that" Most times I just get a puzzled stare, but maybe one or two somewhere along the line will get it.

More short term memory. Typical. I'm talking months, not days. And I do know how to spell "y-o-u-t-u-b-e" in a url.

Sorry, son. You're busted. Especially since a lot of those Youtubes were falsely attributed to -- TADA -- InstaPunk.

Time for physicians to start studying the newest epidemic -- Yungzheimers Syndrome.

I did not link videos I linked articles. Goes to show how much attention you are paying.

Eduardo:

No.

Thius weekend my granddaughter (3) kicked off her shoes in the lower yard at her parents' hous. When dinner was announced, she started marching toward the house. Her father said, "Pick up your shoes." Said granddaughter replied, "No. YOU do it."

Dad replied, "They're your shoes."

She retorted, "I want YOU to do it," and kept marching.

Told you all I'm grumpy.

So, without feedback or intelligent additional commentary, there will be no more excerpts from the list.

Fair enough?

Joe:

Grant/Sherman reference meant to remind you of both our Ohio roots.

I understand and accept your broad cultural point about military service. (If you have the patience, you can find my own history vis a vis the military in the archives... KEYWORD: Vietnam) What I don't accept is that there is no form of warfare or courage that exists outside the military. I'm not talking about myself here. I had two equally brave grandfathers. One was in the trenches of WWI, one wasn't. My dad's bravest moments didn't involve his WWII fighter pilot service but things that happened in corporate America. And if he were still alive, he'd tell you that. Military experience isn't always the best arbiter of cultural conflicts. That's all I'm saying. And I think you can agree with the point.

We're good as far as I can see. I understand your cultural points. I explained why I'm grumpy. I detect that you detect that.

Now. You're the one who brought up Ali again. So I'll respond. I know Bert Sugar, of course. But he was old even in Ali's time. I place Ali at the very top of the heavyweight list and I'm sure I'm not alone. I'll tell you why without heat or propaganda.

He lost three of his prime years as a fighter when he was stripped of his title before he had been convicted of any crime. He was big, the most mobile fighter in heavyweight history, with the fastest hands of any heavyweight ever. I don't begrudge Joe Louis his comments, but in their primes Ali would have taken Louis out in between 5 and 8 rounds. Why? Billy Conn outboxed Louis, made him look silly until he got greedy. Ali was faster than Conn. And the amazing thing about Ali no one knew until he came back after his layoff was that he could take a punch better than almost any heavyweight ever. (e.g., He continued to fight Norton with a broken jaw.) I think he hit the canvas about twice in his pro career. Once against the Englishman Henry Something and once against Frazier. (Wepner doesn't count. He was standing on Ali's foot.) I know this because I wanted him to quit after his second recapture of the heavyweight crown (a record). But I had to watch him fight sluggers like Ron Lyle and Earnie Shavers who hit him again and again with KO shots that should have put him down but didn't. He survived to outpoint them, earned or not. His present state is the result of all that punishment. And I grieve for him on that account. Before and after every such fight I wished, "Quit, quit, quit, you have nothing left to prove." But he didn't. Why it's personal with me when people call him a coward or a media creation. He had the heart of a lion and, as so often happens, it cost him dear.

I saw him in person during the time when he wasn't permitted to fight. He spoke at my college. I went. He was charming, not at all political, and he wrote his own speech. You could tell. He had the sincerity of a man who knows who he is even when everyone else, friend and foe, is spinning a different way. He talked about good things. He was positive. And there was NO BLAME in his remarks.

And if you haven't watched the 14th round of Ali-Frazier 3, blow for blow, Bert Sugar can't save you from a wrong-headed appraisal.

Helk:

"When you were still suckling at your parents nest egg I was already out on my own."

Uh no. You weren't born yet.

Spare me your Urban Mountain Man bullshit.

You provoke, you retreat, you dissimulate, then you pounce and declare superiority. What is that?

It's pure posturing.

The pattern of people who never really reveal themselves except via credentials they never quite offer. I'm a veteran, are you? I'm a city entrepreneur and activist, are you? I'm a licensed thing-a-ma-jiggy, are you?

I'm what you can easily find here if you know how to read. Probably more than 30 times worth what Obama put in his lame autobiographies.

But you're New Age. You can't remember any post older than two weeks. I have written more searching criticism of Romney than any commenter here, but you claim the high ground because you just don't like his ass. Please. I'm not going to build an ICR for your education on my not so simplistic views. Do your own damn homework. For once.

And if you close one more attempted argument with a YouTube video I WILL ban your ass. You're a lazy little prima donna. Enough.

Everybody?! Why I'm grumpy.

RL

"Citing Grant and Sherman is not ad-hominem. It's history."

It is immaterial and illogical in this context, though you are wordsmith enough I'm sure to argue that it isn't (if you so choose).

" admire military combat experience, but it's not directly transferable to cultural combat"

You're wrong; even being in one of the 4 branches of the military makes one part of what Steve Sailer + Pat Buchanan have both rightly identified as the new counterculture, namely that which used to be the dominant culture in America. Service is a statement when conscription/the draft is not there as an alibi.

"We've had a lot of that kind of defeatism around here of late."

Fair enough, but my anecdote was not meant as a waiving of the white flag. I brought up a report of enemy land, and I intend to 'go forth in the armor of my enemy' and surpass him in terms of formal education, and I plan to make enough money to offset / negate whatever contributions he makes for his side.

"I know you spoke in anger, but it's a slippery slope." Fair enough. I apologize

"I'll let the Ali controversy go." I won't just yet, not out of any antipathy, but because I'm genuinely curious. Have you seen Bert Sugar's "100 Greatest List" or read the book? I'd be curious on your take on his take, and where you place Ali on a top 100 list

What Ed said.

Um....

I have no college debt - scholarship.

I have no credit card debt - intelligence.

I have no mortgage - paid cash for my home.

I am responsible. When you were still suckling at your parents nest egg I was already out on my own. You know, renting my first digs at 15. And where were you at 15? Prep school....

At any rate, everything I have done is perpendicular to the norm. And by norm I mean the rampant consumerism that has taken hold of the boomers and their kids and their kids kids.

But by all means vote for Romney. Why not? He is more your cloth than mine.

Helk:

Pay your student loans! YES.

Pay your credit card debts! YES.

Pay your mortgage! YES.

Pay your car loan! YES.

Vote for more debt! STAY HOME ELECTION DAY & WAIT FOR YOUR PERSONAL BAILOUT FROM THE ONE.

I get it. Screw everybody else in the name of your convenient principles , which oddly involve no acceptance of personal financial responsibility. Good luck with that.

To those with specific requests:

I will post them as promised as soon as I can, as an Addendum to the original post.

Thank you for your interest.

Sorry I've been grumpy. My excuse is that I AM grumpy at the moment. I've been trying hard to explain why with minimal apparent success. I'll try to smile more, but I hate LOL tags. A sign of age no doubt.

Joe:

Censure is not hostility.

Citing Grant and Sherman is not ad-hominem. It's history.

I admire military combat experience, but it's not directly transferable to cultural combat, which is the subject here.

Military heroes CAN be cultural defeatists. We've had a lot of that kind of defeatism around here of late, hence my sour tone.

I'll overlook the Longest Day crack. Bear in mind that it's reminiscent of lefties post 9/11 who made the chickenhawk argument against all righties who favored war and hadn't been in the military. I know you spoke in anger, but it's a slippery slope.

I will ask you not to patronize me on the subject of the culture war, which I have been fighting tooth and nail in many "theaters" for 40 years, and I have the life scars to prove it. Pardon me if I don't boast of them.

I'll let the Ali controversy go. You've heard about his career while I lived through it. I won't disguise that I admire him. You're free not to.

Okay, I'll bite. I'm curious at what point a list of reasonable life lessons which could've been laid down by Erma Bombeck turns dark.

Pay your student loans!

Pay your credit card debts!

Pay your mortgage!

Pay your car loan!

Vote for more debt!

I get chills because I can truly imagine you up on our auditorium stage at my school delivering this with that *voice* of yours.

I'm curious in a couple that are very relevant to struggles we faculty face at a school where the kids live on campus. We are responsible for the students in loco parentis, but we are not their actual parents, a tough position sometimes.

I'd love to hear more about

I shouldn't have to tell you to do your homework.

If somebody's bullying you, punch him in the nose. Bullies are all cowards. (bullying being a very hot topic in schools these days, ours included)

and

You're not leaving the house dressed like that. Period. (from a former dorm head of a freshman girls' dorm)

Please. Thank you.

RL

I skipped the LOL tag. I thought it was all funny, not dark. Maybe if you 'splained it all it would be, just not as it stands.

"Argument & conviction by anecdote is their thing, not ours."

R. you must be a really, really old punk if you think my anecdotal evidence is not buttressed by empirical truth. Also, I wasn't aware that I was either mewling or a defeatist, just by pointing out reality.

"Ohio boy? Loved the way Grant and Sherman quit before The U.S dismally surrendered."

For someone who doesn't like anecdote, you sure can do ad hominem. I've been in combat, how about you? Oh, and watching a 6 hour block about the battle of the bulge on the history channel doesn't count.

Well, the Ali thing really stuck in your craw, as that seems to be a vestige from an old post, rather than pertinent to this conversation. Ali sure liked to harass- humiliate as an Uncle Tom anyone who was black and strayed from what he deemed acceptable (re: Foreman, Frasier, even in the aged and infirm Joe Louis, who told Ali to his face that he would have been yet another "bum" in the "bum of the month" club when Brown Bomber was on his record defense spree.

Why the hostility?

Okay, now you actually have me curious:

"I shouldn't have to tell you to do your homework."

Oops, sorry, miscast my last sentence:

That pair of prohibitions attacks the core flaw, the big lie, that the whole list is aimed at: reality is what you want it to be.

RL, as you challenged Bill: "Trust me, it's dark. Pick one. I'll show you that one. "

May I have two, as they're opposite sides of the same coin?

Never hit a girl.

Don't hit your brother. He knows he's not allowed to hit you back.

This speaks to a deep biological truth, that men and women are not equals.

How will you explain it to kids that were brought up to be deeply offended by the idea that the average man can beat the average woman into submission and rape her? Not by the fact that it happens, mind, we all know all men are violent thugs. But by the assertion that this is due to physical, anatomical fact. That just can't be.

I mean, every day they watch cop shows and adventure movies where men are defeated in hand to hand combat by women half their size and weight. Doesn't that mean that women don't need guns to defend themselves, just a well aimed knee to their assailants' balls?

That pair of prohibitions is rooted in the core flaw, the big lie, that the whole list is aimed at: reality is what you want it to be.

Joe:

Argument & conviction by anecdote is their thing, not ours.

Give up on your time, not mine. I'm tired of mewling defeatists.

Ohio boy? Loved the way Grant and Sherman quit before The U.S dismally surrendered.

P.S. Ali never hated America. They hated him. Probably why he curled himself into a little ball and wept about what profs had on their ofc doors. You know. Always wise to know when you're licked and there's no coming back.

Good God. You wouldn't be commenting like this if there weren't bats in your belfry.

Nixon? Where does your time machine stop spinning and when did you stop making sense? Eating Helk cookies?

It's all as bad in the diploma mills as you think it is. I had a conference with a professor the other day, and went up to his office. Every door, without fail, had signs like this:

"If you vote Republican, pat yourself on the back. You screwed yourself out of FASFA Money." Or Alice, of Wonderland Fame, photo-shopped into the midst of an anti-Obama demonstration remarking "This is the stupidest tea party I've ever been to."

There are atheist conclaves that post their flyers next to LGBT signs. I don't think they're atheists out of some deep conviction, either. I think it's just the thought that there's something more important than them that they don't like.

PJB was right; the counter-culture is now the dominant one, and vice versa.

-Get off my lawn.

-You kids wouldn't be doing that if Nixon were in the White House.

Not only do I cut my own meat, I'm capable of selecting it and cooking it, after repairing the sink so the dishes could be washed and the stove so the food can be cooked. That said:

All of this is so obvious I don't need it explained.

But I'm very interested in seeing how you'd explain it to a group of babies that got through high school or even college without knowing these things in their bones.

Mostly what I want to see is how you'd skewer the assumptions that prevent your audience from knowing this.

Bill:

Trust me, it's dark. Pick one. I'll show you that one. I need more than your vote to add the whole thing. My wife doesn't like it. Tell you anything?

I don't think it's dark at all. I've used every one of those phrases on my kids more than

once. I'm curious to see the rest.